Perpetual motion ?

[supersparky]

I'm going to check out that video in a bit of detail in the next day or so. Need to check a few more essential things on
m/h first. Maybe tonight.
Most vehicle alternators, up to the new 'smart alternators anyway, start their life as a 3 phase AC generator. With a bit of help from some Wheatstone bridge rectifiers and voltage regulators it ends up as what we see as dc. But it does need a bit of dc excitation to begin the process. Maybe that's what the magnets are for.
Question for Bill- you obviously are trying to achieve something, to have watched this video all the way through, in the first place.
Give us a hint, as maybe there is another way to get ,whatever it is , done.
I should add that I do not believe it perpetual motion. There is always some snake oil involved.

[Busman]

David, not trying to achieve anything, well aware that the current doctrine is you can't make more energy from x amount that you put in, although heat pumps may test this ?

I do not spend my tme on FB searching for perpetual motion, cancer cures or any other snake oil, but while on an international wine forum this bobbed up.
I bothered to watch it because I thought I could spot the snake oil, or at least the con at the end, "send money to this addy in nigeria stuff."

Have been unable to spot the oil, if it is there, as T! said, very cleverly done.

I don't believe we should have closed minds on this subject, I would prefer to dissect the info and see where the oil is. If I knew more about alternators I would go to the wreckers and buy one and try to replicate this experiment/con ?

[T1 Terry]

I want to see the electric motor pulled apart, that is where I believe the black magic is hidden. Watch the water pump, have you ever seen a water pump prime that quickly, watch the speed the pump motor turns compared to the volume of water displaced. The speed of the electric fan, if it really was 280vac being generated, that fan would be spinning a lot faster, so would the pump motor. It is very cleverly done, but it is not perpetual motion with a PTO attached.
I believe the alternator was actually converted to a dc motor, by spinning it up with the drill it charges a battery and that drives both the alternator and the electric motor. By linking the two together it makes you believe one is driving the other, but I believe the battery in the electric motor is driving both of them.
Without the pump turning, there is no path for the water being pumped up the "suction pipe" to exit the pump output pipe, the faster the pump motor spins, the more often the path from the pump inlet to the pump outlet is available, so ore water flows ...... the fan, it is just a dc motor, the light globes are LEDs.
If it really was 280vac being generated, he would have been electrocuted more than once handling the wires with so little care

T1 Terry

My aim here is clarity, if indeed this setup does generate AC he basically has solved an energy riddle, that is why I question both the original video and the suggestions from T1 above, and offer alternative thoughts. As I stated ealier I do not know enough about car alternators to really comment on whether they can be made to generate AC, though I do recall that there is some sort of recifier on the bus alternator to convert output to DC ?
Anyone else have any other ideas ?

Ok first up the water pump. It was primed, via a foot valve so no, there is nothing new there, my experience comes from 30 years on a hydroponic farm where we had 50 Davey pumps running 24/7. If the impeller is full you get instant flow.
Next 280 V AC. He only shows that when flicking the pulley quickly, as the top voltage reached, I don't believe he specifies any voltage after that and if you look at the fan speed I think it is about right for low speed on a 3 speed fan.The electric motor speed seems much slower when running than it may have reached by "flicking" ? So perhaps a lower AC voltage is being produced ?
I am not sure how an alternator can be converted to both a DC motor and a battery charger at the same time ? Surely one consumes power and the other outputs it ?
I don't understand the next para at all, obviously when a pump is not running there is no water flow ? Fan speed dealt with before, we have a houseful of AC LED's and a busful of DC LED's so no problem there if AC power is indeed being generated.( the ineference is LED's must be DC )
I was amused also by his handing of of the wires, pretty much wnat I have seen some do in bus conversions !!

First the pump, once it is stopped the water trickles out and a bit drains back because none of the foot valves seal perfectly, if they did, you couldn't prime the pick up pipe because the air trapped in there would stop the water from reaching the foot valve to create a solid water supply. I know all this from my river pump to the house, the pump motor fan spins much faster yet the water flow is still progressive, that is also not a self priming pup .......
Next, he shows a needle flicking full scale on an old analogue meter, no actual voltage is shown, just a text saying it is 280vac.
The trick is, he isolates one set of windings, as the magnets pass this winding coil, an electrical pulse is produced. Watch what happens when he tries to spin it faster, the needle does swing as high .... soke and mirrors stuff. If he really wanted to show the voltage delivered, he would have the multimeter across the wires showing the voltage when spinning the alternator with the electric drill and when the alternator and electric motor were connected together and running.

The current through that single set of windings will attract one pole of a magnet yet repulse the other pole. With out the belt linking the electric motor to the alternator, it stops instantly because the push and pull is equal and the motor "poles" locking it in as stationary position.

The LED light mystery, there is no such thing as an AC LED, they are polar so the current must flow in one direction only. The LEDs powerede by AC have a rectifier and capacitor to smooth out the AC wave form into direct current to power the LED.
The fan is just another AC motor converted to DC the same way the alternator was ......

The give away that a battery needs to be charged in the electric motor casing, the length of tie the alternator needs to be spin to charge up the electric motor until it spins, then watch the speed increase. If this was perpetual motion plus, the electric motor driving the alternator powering the electric otor would produce an ever increasing rpm till the both exploded.

If you want to see incredible, Google the Nicola Tesla disc motor, could this be run in reverse to drive an electric turbine powered by falling water?

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

David, not trying to achieve anything, well aware that the current doctrine is you can't make more energy from x amount that you put in, although heat pumps may test this ?

I do not spend my tme on FB searching for perpetual motion, cancer cures or any other snake oil, but while on an international wine forum this bobbed up.
I bothered to watch it because I thought I could spot the snake oil, or at least the con at the end, "send money to this addy in nigeria stuff."

Have been unable to spot the oil, if it is there, as T! said, very cleverly done.

I don't believe we should have closed minds on this subject, I would prefer to dissect the info and see where the oil is. If I knew more about alternators I would go to the wreckers and buy one and try to replicate this experiment/con ?

No conundrum about the difference between the electrical watt energy fed into drive the pump compared to the heat energy, positive or negative of ambient temperature, it produces. This is just the limited view the brains trust of the day had about generating heat energy from electrical energy. Their view at the time was electrical energy could only be converted to heat energy via resistance, so the amount of electricity to heat a given amount of water was deemed to be 1,000w, so that amount of heat energy was considered to be 1,000w or 1 kw. Modern engineering proved them wrong, the same way as heavier than air craft fly and concrete floats as simple examples ...... or the fact they got the electrical flow on a DC circuit backwards ...

T1 Terry

[Busman]

Well I will bow to your greater electrical knowledge Terry but the stuff about foot valves not sealing is simply not correct. It seems you have had experience with 1 leaky foot valve, we had over 50 on the farm and as soon as one tank lost prime after being turned off from a weather event, the foot valve or the O rings in it were replaced.

Pumps are above foot valves, when you prime a pump the air comes up the pipe and exits the filler plug.

The small multi stage pump in the video has between 3 and 5 impellers, that is why you get instant flow.

[supersparky]

Just watched that full video on YouTube. Still can't download it though. I call BS on it. He simply turns an auto alternator into a single phase generator. The reason it takes so long to start the motor is because he has to charge the capacitor/s first. It's hard to tell, but if it is a capacitor start, capacitor run elec motor then the half wave ripple will continue to recharge the other capacitor and allow it to continue running. But, it will have bugger all power.
Without knowing the voltage of the connected lamps its hard to tell how much power is being made or consumed.
The water pump is just added fluff using a hidden supply lead and the pump lead into the gpo is wired to be simply a switch.
His YouTube channel is loaded with vids about how to make xyz from abc. 227v seems to be a common number.
It's kinda a pity that the old C..A forum has evolved to what it is now. The GOBs would have gone into apoloxea or whatever the right word is about this.
Anyway, I call BS. But I'm gunna try and replicate it one day when I get a few other projects sorted.

[Busman]

Thanks David, an interesting take, there may be a possibility that it could work then, without DC hidden motors and so on ?
I don't thing the power output is a big deal for me, I am simply inquisitive and wonder if this could work ?

Using your electrical knowledge though, could this still be a possibility with a single cap motor ?

Reason I ask is my experience with dual cap motors is that the caps are usually side by side in a decent size box, I guess for easier coupling to start ? Looking at the motor in the video I only see a cover typical of a single capacitor ?

Doesn't seem to be that hard to make a single phase generator out of an alternator then ? Might just have a go at it myself, I am a bugger when my curiosity gets piqued.
Thanks
Bill

[supersparky]

Bill, it would make for an interesting experiment, if you have a bit of spare time. You can see by the video that the bloke has had a couple of capacitor discharges hit him across his fingers. I reckon that is why he keeps the motor wires joined together when not running it. I can't read info of the motor as it pans over the nameplate, that would give us a better clue.
Checkout his Youtube Channel, he's 'invented' heaps of stuff using alternators etc. Hmmm.

[Busman]

What have I started ?
It seems our asian friend is not the only one that is playing with this
There is quite a wealth of info, some decrying, some offering different versions of our original guys setup
Others bring in diodes and other stuff

The most realistic, which is a lot more complicated is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovSPkIcJJDk I think it looks more the goods than original

BUT, he is claiming a 10Kw output from a car alternator ?

This guy brings 3 wires out from the alternator, but only connects 2 to his single phase motor. always though that you needed a nuetral and one of the 3 phase wires to run a single phase motor ? But this guy seems to do it with 2 phases and no neutral ?

Anyone any ideas on this one ? What I wonder about also is how ferquency control is achieved.

[supersparky]

Bill, back in the old days, like 50's and 60's there was, and still is in rural Vic at least, a system called 2 phase 440-480v. It was used to run a lot of things in the old shearing sheds. I'm not really sure how the old motors were connected internally though, or whether they used capacitors to shift the phase angle. Did you notice that the magic 227-228 volts pops up a lot in those clips. And there is
The frequency is controlled by the speed that the alternator is running at. I think that 1600 rpm on a 4pole 3phase genset used to produce 50hz.
I haven't had the time to attempt to replicate it yet, and probably won't for a while. I still can't imagine that you can create enough energy from nothing, to be able to drive something. But, it good to be proven wrong from time to time, it keeps the grey matter circulating.
I wish this had popped up a couple of months ago, when I was down in my mates scrapyard in Vic. I could have collected a bunch of stuff to experiment with.