DIN Rails. Is that what they're called?
They're those plastic containers or modules into which the circuit breakers, RCD's RVD's etc etc are mounted in the switchbox of every house.
My question is, I know they come in different sizes with regards to how many of each thingymabobs you can mount in them, but are all the different circuit breakers, RCDs etc the same size and no matter which DIN rail I buy they will fit?
Or are they different sizes depending on if they're going into a caravan or a house?
The one in my neighbours Jayco seems awful small. I'm still on ceramic fuses in my house switchboard so I can't compare measurments.
I need to buy one so need to understand this basic fact.
Do I buy from a caravan mob or will any old electrical retailer do?
Jim
DIN Rails?
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DIN Rails?
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Re: DIN Rails?
98% are the same but I did come across mini-din rails once.
When I renovated my garage I bought a complete unit & it was a lot cheaper than buying the bits & pieces.
Empty one...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-pole-Encl ... SwndBcwWSQ
Loaded one ...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COMPLETE-6- ... SwEONcDuiL
When I renovated my garage I bought a complete unit & it was a lot cheaper than buying the bits & pieces.
Empty one...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-pole-Encl ... SwndBcwWSQ
Loaded one ...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COMPLETE-6- ... SwEONcDuiL
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BruceS
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BruceS
Mannum, SA
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Re: DIN Rails?
The rail the DIN mount components fit on is a standard size, but as Bruce said, there are mini DIN rails and breakers etc I think called micro ... dear as all hell so ya don't want them if you can help it. Good ones have a pressed steel DIN rail and removable, the cheaper stuff it is moulded in as part of the box.
Next, all RV RCDs, RVDs, circuit breakers etc must be double pole for any thing above 120vac. That means they are all 2 breakers wide, so you need a box that carries double the number .... 6 x double pole units fit in a 12 pole box.
The very important bit, only AC wiring and stuff in the AC box and only DC stuff in the DC box. Even behind the board the 2 groups must be separated, and PLEASE don't use household wiring for DC stuff, or speaker wire either. Never use automotive cable for the AC stuff, the insulation isn't rated for that purpose and could cross over between cables creating an electrocution risk or fire.
Next, all RV RCDs, RVDs, circuit breakers etc must be double pole for any thing above 120vac. That means they are all 2 breakers wide, so you need a box that carries double the number .... 6 x double pole units fit in a 12 pole box.
The very important bit, only AC wiring and stuff in the AC box and only DC stuff in the DC box. Even behind the board the 2 groups must be separated, and PLEASE don't use household wiring for DC stuff, or speaker wire either. Never use automotive cable for the AC stuff, the insulation isn't rated for that purpose and could cross over between cables creating an electrocution risk or fire.
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Re: DIN Rails?
Any elec wholesaler will do.
Din rail is the part that all the bits and pieces clip onto, you can buy a seperate metal version when building switchboards.
What you are talking about is a small switchboard, usually a sub mains, usually with a plastic DIN rail. You can get them down to a couple of 2 pole RCD's. Plus an isolation switch of course.
As Bruce has said much cheaper when loaded with all the bits, they run specials at places like Ideal from time to time.
Din rail is the part that all the bits and pieces clip onto, you can buy a seperate metal version when building switchboards.
What you are talking about is a small switchboard, usually a sub mains, usually with a plastic DIN rail. You can get them down to a couple of 2 pole RCD's. Plus an isolation switch of course.
As Bruce has said much cheaper when loaded with all the bits, they run specials at places like Ideal from time to time.
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Re: DIN Rails?
Yeah my sparky is still scratching his head over that one. How do you seperate them when you are switching 240 v, or 415v with an extra low voltage control circuit ? i.e. the control wires 12 or 24 usually have to go to the switching relay as well as the low voltage (240) ones.
Bullshit really.
Bullshit really.
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Re: DIN Rails?
If you need to see an example, they are at Bunnings.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/deta-8-modu ... d_p4330992
https://www.bunnings.com.au/deta-8-modu ... d_p4330992
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Re: DIN Rails?
You need to make up a piece of high current insulating board to go between the extra low voltage wires that do the switching and the 240vac that is being switched. The control wires must be inside their own conduit to keep them separated from the AC stuff.Busman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:54 pm Yeah my sparky is still scratching his head over that one. How do you seperate them when you are switching 240 v, or 415v with an extra low voltage control circuit ? i.e. the control wires 12 or 24 usually have to go to the switching relay as well as the low voltage (240) ones.
Bullshit really.
It might seem like bullshit, until you go to disconnect a 12v or 24v wire or battery terminal and find it also has 240vac across it.
The old forums had posts about just that sort of thing happening, father going out to clean the battery terminals on the bus and getting electrocuted. Generally the result of poor quality inverters or poor quality wiring, including the insulation being dissolved by polystyrene being used for thermal insulation in the walls and ceiling. Only certain types of polystyrene can be used with electrical cabling, you sometimes even find the appliance cord partly fused into the polystyrene packaging when removing an appliance from its box. These days the powercord is often in a plastic bag as well, that's why, to protect it from the packaging. If you look at a factory built caravan or motorhome that is sold as "insulated" you will see there is no polystyrene near the cabling for the same reason.
The caravan the owner tried to burn here at the workshop (still not sure if it was stupidity or deliberate) had 12v wires actually wrapped around the 240vac cables and when he shorted the 12v cables out with the holesaw through the cupboard wall (with no fuse in the cables running to the 2 x 200Ah batteries) the 12v wiring actually melted its way through into the 240vac cables and fortunately, the workshop RCD tripped before Brian tried to disconnect the battery, or it could have killed him.
Serious stuff and the reason it is so important to keep the 240vac cables in separate bundles to the extra low voltage 12v or 24vdc cables, and even the solar cables ..... yet how many caravans are still out there with light switches for both the 12vdc lights and 240vac lights in the same switch block ....... the wiring runs together inside the wooden door frame
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Re: DIN Rails?
And how possible is it to seperate when the 240 and control wires come within millimetres of each other at a contactor or relay ?
Impossible. I am sure my sparky said there is something in the wiring rules "as far as practicable". That is why he too thinks it is bullshit, even the rules writers have no solution for that problem.
Impossible. I am sure my sparky said there is something in the wiring rules "as far as practicable". That is why he too thinks it is bullshit, even the rules writers have no solution for that problem.
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Re: DIN Rails?
Do you mean outside the contactor or inside it? The standards we have to work with cover wiring, components are someone else's nightmare. The cross over voltage resistance required in a component that has mixed circuits is well above any that the component will ever experience, even in a 100% overload condition on all circuits, so about as safe as practicable seems to cover the requirement.Busman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:31 pm And how possible is it to seperate when the 240 and control wires come within millimetres of each other at a contactor or relay ?
Impossible. I am sure my sparky said there is something in the wiring rules "as far as practicable". That is why he too thinks it is bullshit, even the rules writers have no solution for that problem.
There is no compulsion to follow the standards, if the system injures or kills someone, by the time the authorities and families concerned have got stuck into you, you'd be wishing it was you that were the one that was killed .... gotta be easier to just follow the rules no matter how silly they appear to be
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Re: DIN Rails?
Until they start making contactors and relays with all the 240 at one end (in and out) and the lower control voltage at the other side, it is impossible for total seperation, that is why my very experienced sparky says it is crap. You tell me how you seperate them when the terminals are within mils of each other, it is impossible, as they have to come out of the same cable duct, so that makes the whole rule silly in my opinion. And as far as the out "practical" goes, we could still be arguing about that next century.
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