Lithium Batteries, who has them?

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T1 Terry
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by T1 Terry »

Tomorrow, what size cells builds a better battery and what needs to be done to prepare the cells for use as a house battery.
Did it seem like a Ground Hog type thing where tomorrow never seemed to happen :lol:

The capacity requirement of the battery isn't the only thing that dictates the size of the cells used, more often it's the available space. For house battery use, the smallest practical sized cells you can use, as long as they are commonly available, the better.... within limits. A 200Ah or 400Ah battery is far easier to get along with if built from 100Ah cells, than if it was built from 200Ah or 400Ah cells, yet it would not be practical to build a 1,000Ah battery from 100Ah cells, but it would be better to use 200Ah cells.
Why? Why not use the cells that match the capacity you want, 200Ah cells for a 200Ah battery, 700Ah cells for a 700Ah battery etc........ It all comes down to averages, accessibility and mass production. But first an explanation of what's happening inside the cell.
Each capacity cell is made up of a lot of plates of lithium ferrous yttrium phosphate coated aluminium plate and graphite coated copper plates with a separator between them, each plate is less than a mm thick and the coating sin micros and sprayed on to the plates. All this is soaked in an electrolyte of salts and lithium and other stuff that you really don't need to know about, maybe a table spoon in each cells, not ltrs of the stuff like in you car battery.
An ion exchange through the separator from the lithium compound to the graphite compound stores the charge, the ions return to the lithium compound out of the graphite as that stored charge is released. The ions in the electrolyte act as an exchange, one ion leaves the graphite on one side of the separator and an ion close the surface of the lithium compound enters it, the ion doesn't have to travel all the way from one plate to the other, just one in and one out, that is how they can accept and release the electrical energy so fast. This electrolyte is a very limited amount so the plates need to be very close to each other so there is enough electrolyte to cover all of each plate. I've already mentioned about how laying the cell on it large flat side allows the electrolyte to drain from the upper cells, there are other precautions that also need to be taken to ensure the plates have enough electrolyte in close contact, but I'll save that for a later chapter.
So now you know roughly how the plates are arranged, now, each of these paper thin plates are linked to the copper or aluminium block that you see on the top of the cell. They just bolt them on, 2 little bolts through all the paper thin copper plates at one end and all the aluminium plates at the other end.
Now we get to the mass production part... hope you are still awake.
Each of these plates are made by the millions, they would all be similar, yet not exactly the same. Depending on the combination of those plates on the upper end of the std and those on the lower end of the std as to the exact capacity of that particular cell. The thickness of the material sprayed onto the plates effects how quickly they can absorb the ions, the thicker the material the longer it takes to get the ion in or out of the deepest part of the material.
Now for the averages part.
if you look at the cells as either side of the std design as a number it might help to explain this bit. If one cell is say plus 1 so 201Ah capacity and the next cell is minus 1 so 199Ah capacity, then these 2 cells connected in series, positive to neg, then the usable capacity of this battery is limited to the cell with only 199Ah capacity, but if cell 1 was 101Ah capacity and cell 2 was 99Ah capacity and these 2 cells were joined in parallel, positive to positive and negative to negative, you would have a cell with 200Ah capacity. What does that matter, these cells only really change voltage at the full state or very empty state, if one cell is even 1Ah less capacity than the next in series then it will be full before the others and it's voltage will rapidly climb to a point where damage occurs, yet the voltage on the other cell that has 1 more Ah capacity is still much lower, it isn't full yet. The same thing happens at the empty end, the cell with 1 Ah less is empty before the others so it's voltage will drop low enough to be damaged while the other cells still have plenty of energy to feed the load.
Next look at the possible difference in resistance within the cells, one high and one low cell joined together in parallel will balance each other out, but on their own in series they can't share out the differences so the voltage while charging will be higher in the high resistance cell yet lower while under load the same cell voltage will be lower. So averaging out the differences between the cells by linking 2 or more together in parallel means a far better balanced battery.

Now for the accessibility part...... tomorrow, I can hear the snoring in the background from here :lol:

T1 Terry
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by bagmaker »

interesting...............AND still awake :lol:

A couple of tech questions-
Are the plates typically aligned vertically in the ideal cell position?
Is the cell full of electrolyte soup or is there an (air?) gap?
Do the cells breath / vent?

Thanks,
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by T1 Terry »

bagmaker wrote:interesting...............AND still awake :lol:

A couple of tech questions-
Are the plates typically aligned vertically in the ideal cell position?
Ideally vertical long ways although laying on their side is acceptable
Is the cell full of electrolyte soup or is there an (air?) gap?
The cell evacuated, then the electrolyte fed in so it is soaked into the plate material. It is claimed up to a tablespoon of electrolyte can be drained out of a cell, I believe Jack Rickard showed this on his EVTV show but I'm not exactly sure what the conditions were to achieve this. In what we class as room temp the electrolyte appears to evaporate very quickly if not contained in the cell casing so..... From what I have read the electrolyte is actually contained in the graphite and lithium compound with just enough to soak the separator material to allow an ion interchange.

Do the cells breath / vent?
Thanks,
The cells only vent if the pressure inside the case exceeds the pressure relief valve tolerance and this generally results in a stuffed cell. The electrolyte is flammable and much like a petroleum vapour, it's only really flammable while in the white cloud vapour state and either settles or disperses very quickly in moving air. Like all flammable material, it requires oxygen to burn and no oxygen is generated within the cell, so it needs to combine with oxygen outside the cell to actually burn. The smell is a strange sweet sort of aroma, not unpleasant, just different and quite strong so you would recognise it as an unusual smell if you ever came across it. I accidently cooked 2 brand new cells with an accidental over charge, there was no visible white cloud, but the heat and smell was very intense and was still quite strong 12hrs later.

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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by T1 Terry »

Accessibility. This comes in the form of battery size/weight that can be easily moved/installed as well as access to the connections that make up a battery. A 400Ah 12v battery would be roughly 60kg, 285mm high x 460mm x 270mm, it would have 3 connector strips to link the 4 cells together. Sounds ok......After a yr or so oxidisation starts to build up between surfaces that and electrical current passes through unless there is a good anti corrosion paste applied. You may remember back I mentioned the plates that make up the cells are just bolted the a block of copper/aluminium and this provides the external connection point. Here comes the bit where you need to picture different scenarios in your head. As the oxidisation builds up it creates a layer of resistant material between the connector and the terminal. As the resistance increases heat is generated across the joint, the heat accelerates the oxidisation process and so on till you discover there is a problem, remove the terminal links, clean off the oxidisation, apply new anti corrosion paste and bolt it all back together. The greater the current (amps) through any single contact point that is corroded, the greater the heat generated. Hope you have got this pictured in your head, now picture what happens to the thin plates connected to the block inside the battery case. They have been subjected to the same heat so the oxidisation would have accelerated between those contacts as well, but you can't get to those contacts to clean them.

Let's look at an alternative arrangement. 4 x 100Ah cells connected in parallel (+ to + and - to -) will build 400Ah @ 3.2v, x 4 sets of these in series will build 12.8v. Each 4 x 100Ah pack will be roughly 15kg, 220mm high x 180mm x 260mm. It will have 6 connectors on top. Each cell will contribute 25% of the current so each connection is subjected to less heat generation if a high resistance connection should occur, actually, should a high resistance joint occur the other 3 cells would take the majority of the load and an imbalance within that cell group would soon become apparent, so the problem would not progress to a serious heating issue therefore the heat stress to the internal connections would be reduced. When a high resistance joint is suspected, all the connectors would be removed, cleaned and recoated with anti corrosion paste.
Can you picture the difference between the 2 scenarios? Yes, one would require more work at terminal cleaning time, but if the object is long cycle life than a bit of maintenance every 12mths to 2 yrs isn't really a big ask is it.

T1 Terry
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by bagmaker »

Ah T1, I was kinda hoping you would see the link to my previos question................
With the cells completely drowned in electrolyte (zero airspace) OR, with an inert or even flammable gas inside -there would be minimal internal oxidization possible under the conditions you mention above. As you said, no oxygen = no fire but it must also mean no oxidization??

Having read a little about lifepo4 failure and subsequent bulging (and blown out a few lipo hobby packs myself) I wondered if it was due to air expansion (shouldn't happen due to the vent) or chemicals forming something hard and nasty.

It seems strange that there would be internal oxidization at all....

Thanks for the explanations, really good stuff
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by T1 Terry »

Good point, no oxygen = no oxidisation and as far as I can make out, the electrolyte is non corrosive, so it must be some by product produced when the electrolyte is excessively heated that causes the copper to breakdown. When a cell is overheat the internal resistance climbs dramatically so if it's not oxidisation of the contacts then...... More hands on research required it seems. The tricky bit is opening the cell without exposing it to oxygen. Every damage cell I've opened has had heavily oxidised copper plates, particularly close to the terminal blocks and there is always signs of over heating in these areas. One possibility is the "O" ring seal around the terminal fails after a terminal overheat allowing the oxygen to enter the cell and this is where/how the oxidisation starts. Cause and effect is always a tricky one, the oxidisation is evident as soon as the cell is opened so I believe it's already there rather than develops as a result of the cell being opened.

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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by Izabarack »

T1 Terry wrote:As the resistance increases heat is generated across the joint,.....
I once had access to a FLIR; a military grade device then but now quite cheap (relatively) versions are usually carried on the standard fire truck. Such a device shows up even slightly warm connections. I now use an IR thermometer to do the job. Pull about 15 Amps for 15 minutes then run the thermometer across the batteries and connections. Any HR shows up easily and early in the corrosion process. The method has also shown up just loose connections from time to time.

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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by bagmaker »

Is the vent a pressure type, ie, will it only vent if the internal pressure builds?
And will it allow gas to come in again when the pressures reverse?

Thinking along the lines of mounting, perhaps the practice of sideways constraint of the cell that has been advocated is a bad thing?
If each cell were allowed to expand and contract due to thermal variance- even when overcharged- then it wouldnt suck oxygen back in when it cooled down again.

again, just musing
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by BruceS »

It's probably like the cap on a diesel tank on a semi............ it has lead melted into holes thatr will blow out if very hot or under extreme pressure .... eg if the vehicle burns it'll stop a violent explosion.
At a guess if the 'vent' blows on these batteries I'd think the damage would already be done & it'd be irrelevant what happened after that.
More like a sales pitch in regards to safety. lol
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by BernieQ2 »

Its called a bleve valve Bruce on the tankers.
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