
Lithium Batteries, who has them?
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
I always found printing my name a little more difficult, but dotting the i in my surname took real concentration 

A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
OMG you get to the surname what a firemanT1 Terry wrote:I always found printing my name a little more difficult, but dotting the i in my surname took real concentration

Queen of the Banal & OT chatter and proud of it. If it offends you then tough titty titty bang bang.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
and my parents gave me a long middle name as wellDot wrote:OMG you get to the surname what a firemanT1 Terry wrote:I always found printing my name a little more difficult, but dotting the i in my surname took real concentration


A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
G'day all,
Responding to the topic "Lithium batteries - who has them?", rather than all the other "guff".
This response is not to say ours is the best or the way that others should go, it is just what we have and what works for us. It just shows what can be achieved with items that may already be part of your current system.
We have 400ah of lifepo4 batteries in a system fitted by T1 Terry in Nov 2013.
The brief given to Terry, by me, was that the system should have the maximum capacity that can fit in to my fixed and unalterable (size wise) external battery box and be able to utilize the existing 240v charger, 40 amp solar regulator, inverter, battery monitor and 3 x 140w solar panels, all of which were fitted in or on the c'van.
The brief given to me by my wife, and passed on to Terry as being the over riding brief, was "do not, under ANY circumstances, alter the internal or external appearance of "MY" caravan!!
Easy to see who is in control in our household!
Both briefs were fulfilled, albeit we did have to run one 600mm piece of quad from the kitchen bench up to the overhead cupboards, to cover some cable. This was in a corner and the quad, obtained from Bunnings, matched the cabinetry so well that I had to point it out to Anne.
We have a Projecta 50 amp 240v charger, a Xantrex 40 amp regulator, a Xantrex link lite battery monitor and a Projecta 2000w psw inverter. All of these were in the caravan when built new, except for the 2000w inverter. Original inverter was a Projecta 1000w psw but I upgraded this to the 2000w model when I realized how much power we now had. We also had an RVD/EI fitted to the system so inverter is safe for all 3 pin plugs.
I also fitted a Projecta 20amp dc/dc charger in our tunnel boot in the c'van, approx 600mm from the batteries. This one will operate all day at its maximum capacity and it works in tandem with the solar so that, at times when driving, up to 35 amps can be going into the batteries.
I have no association with Projecta, just find their products robust and well priced with a reasonable warranty and excellent technical backup service if required.
When Installing the 2000w inverter, I had to upgrade the wiring from the 4 awg cable to the equivalent of 3/0 awg, as my inverter is located 6.5 metres (so 13 metre cable run) from the batteries.
3/0 awg cable is very thick and hard to work with so decided to run 2/0 awg in combination with the original 4 awg (for the 1000w inverter) to give a bit better than 3/0 awg equivalent. This has worked well.
If the voltage at the batteries is, say, 13.6v, then the no load voltage at the inverter (6.5 metres away) would be around 13.3v, so voltage drop is acceptable. When running the Ibis air command air conditioner from the inverter, the voltage at the inverter will be 12.8 or there abouts. A voltage drop of .5v when drawing 1450w is acceptable!.
As an aside, I am now in the c'van and it was 32 deg C when I came in. I put the air con on via the inverter (no external 240v connected at this stage) and 35 mins later it was 24 Deg C. I didn't look at the battery monitor to see the SOC when I entered but I think it would have been about 70% (ie about 280ah left). Don't know how long I have been in here but would be about 1.75 hrs. I just looked at the battery monitor and it was showing 20.5% remaining. The voltage was still showing 12.9v. Can't complain about that!
As I am at my daughters house, I have put the 240 power into the c'van to charge it up overnight.
We have just spent from April to mid September on the road, mainly in the goldfields of WA.
Maintenance/attending to the set up consisted of checking the link lite monitor for SOC/amps in etc (the same as I did with the old LA batteries) and occassionally checking the Junsi cell logger to see if cells were out of balance. They were sometimes not perfectly balanced but never far enough out to cause concern.
The battery monitor and cell logger are both located on the side of the end of the overhead cupboards as you enter the c'van so are extremely easy to view.
As well as running the Ibis a/c, we also use ( but obviously not at the same time) a 2000w electric kettle, the microwave on full power (1480w) and when driving, the electric side of the hot water system.
At one time, on a very cold evening and morning when we had the diesel heater operating, our friends traveling with us plugged an extension lead into our c'van 240 v outlet and used a 1000w electric fan heater in their van. They were both extremely grateful and impressed!
In all of the above where I refer to "I did or we did", I normally mean that I knew what I wanted but I had someone else do the technical work for me. I was happy to do the lifting, crawling drilling etc, but not the actual technical work.
If I wasn't aware of my limitations in this area, my dear wife normally provided a timely reminder!
As you can see from this post, we are very pleased with our set up and it works well for us. It certainly makes life on the road much easier, especially if, like us, you do not spend much time in c'van parks. When on the goldfields, we can comfortably spend 14 days away from c'van parks and even then, it is only the need for water that takes us to them.
We have a Honda 2 generator, but have only used it twice in the last 7 months and both times were to assist someone else.
The other thing we find convenient is that when using the inverter to power the van, including the air con, I can still run the generator to power only the 240v battery charger.
When operating in this manner, the generator is only operating on low speed and therefore low noise, Eco cycle. We would normally only use this facility when helping our kids at harvest time where the a/c is going all day and there is no way the solar can keep up.
We are probably 1 solar panel short of being safely self sufficient and I will probably get an additional 120w folding portable soon. We also have a 230 litre Vitrifrigo 12v compressor fridge in the c'van and these are power hungry beasts.
That is probably enough for only my 2nd post, which is why it may be all over the place so will leave it at that.
Regards,
Ian
Responding to the topic "Lithium batteries - who has them?", rather than all the other "guff".
This response is not to say ours is the best or the way that others should go, it is just what we have and what works for us. It just shows what can be achieved with items that may already be part of your current system.
We have 400ah of lifepo4 batteries in a system fitted by T1 Terry in Nov 2013.
The brief given to Terry, by me, was that the system should have the maximum capacity that can fit in to my fixed and unalterable (size wise) external battery box and be able to utilize the existing 240v charger, 40 amp solar regulator, inverter, battery monitor and 3 x 140w solar panels, all of which were fitted in or on the c'van.
The brief given to me by my wife, and passed on to Terry as being the over riding brief, was "do not, under ANY circumstances, alter the internal or external appearance of "MY" caravan!!
Easy to see who is in control in our household!
Both briefs were fulfilled, albeit we did have to run one 600mm piece of quad from the kitchen bench up to the overhead cupboards, to cover some cable. This was in a corner and the quad, obtained from Bunnings, matched the cabinetry so well that I had to point it out to Anne.
We have a Projecta 50 amp 240v charger, a Xantrex 40 amp regulator, a Xantrex link lite battery monitor and a Projecta 2000w psw inverter. All of these were in the caravan when built new, except for the 2000w inverter. Original inverter was a Projecta 1000w psw but I upgraded this to the 2000w model when I realized how much power we now had. We also had an RVD/EI fitted to the system so inverter is safe for all 3 pin plugs.
I also fitted a Projecta 20amp dc/dc charger in our tunnel boot in the c'van, approx 600mm from the batteries. This one will operate all day at its maximum capacity and it works in tandem with the solar so that, at times when driving, up to 35 amps can be going into the batteries.
I have no association with Projecta, just find their products robust and well priced with a reasonable warranty and excellent technical backup service if required.
When Installing the 2000w inverter, I had to upgrade the wiring from the 4 awg cable to the equivalent of 3/0 awg, as my inverter is located 6.5 metres (so 13 metre cable run) from the batteries.
3/0 awg cable is very thick and hard to work with so decided to run 2/0 awg in combination with the original 4 awg (for the 1000w inverter) to give a bit better than 3/0 awg equivalent. This has worked well.
If the voltage at the batteries is, say, 13.6v, then the no load voltage at the inverter (6.5 metres away) would be around 13.3v, so voltage drop is acceptable. When running the Ibis air command air conditioner from the inverter, the voltage at the inverter will be 12.8 or there abouts. A voltage drop of .5v when drawing 1450w is acceptable!.
As an aside, I am now in the c'van and it was 32 deg C when I came in. I put the air con on via the inverter (no external 240v connected at this stage) and 35 mins later it was 24 Deg C. I didn't look at the battery monitor to see the SOC when I entered but I think it would have been about 70% (ie about 280ah left). Don't know how long I have been in here but would be about 1.75 hrs. I just looked at the battery monitor and it was showing 20.5% remaining. The voltage was still showing 12.9v. Can't complain about that!
As I am at my daughters house, I have put the 240 power into the c'van to charge it up overnight.
We have just spent from April to mid September on the road, mainly in the goldfields of WA.
Maintenance/attending to the set up consisted of checking the link lite monitor for SOC/amps in etc (the same as I did with the old LA batteries) and occassionally checking the Junsi cell logger to see if cells were out of balance. They were sometimes not perfectly balanced but never far enough out to cause concern.
The battery monitor and cell logger are both located on the side of the end of the overhead cupboards as you enter the c'van so are extremely easy to view.
As well as running the Ibis a/c, we also use ( but obviously not at the same time) a 2000w electric kettle, the microwave on full power (1480w) and when driving, the electric side of the hot water system.
At one time, on a very cold evening and morning when we had the diesel heater operating, our friends traveling with us plugged an extension lead into our c'van 240 v outlet and used a 1000w electric fan heater in their van. They were both extremely grateful and impressed!
In all of the above where I refer to "I did or we did", I normally mean that I knew what I wanted but I had someone else do the technical work for me. I was happy to do the lifting, crawling drilling etc, but not the actual technical work.
If I wasn't aware of my limitations in this area, my dear wife normally provided a timely reminder!
As you can see from this post, we are very pleased with our set up and it works well for us. It certainly makes life on the road much easier, especially if, like us, you do not spend much time in c'van parks. When on the goldfields, we can comfortably spend 14 days away from c'van parks and even then, it is only the need for water that takes us to them.
We have a Honda 2 generator, but have only used it twice in the last 7 months and both times were to assist someone else.
The other thing we find convenient is that when using the inverter to power the van, including the air con, I can still run the generator to power only the 240v battery charger.
When operating in this manner, the generator is only operating on low speed and therefore low noise, Eco cycle. We would normally only use this facility when helping our kids at harvest time where the a/c is going all day and there is no way the solar can keep up.
We are probably 1 solar panel short of being safely self sufficient and I will probably get an additional 120w folding portable soon. We also have a 230 litre Vitrifrigo 12v compressor fridge in the c'van and these are power hungry beasts.
That is probably enough for only my 2nd post, which is why it may be all over the place so will leave it at that.
Regards,
Ian
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Oops forgot to mention that the inverter is permanently wired into our c'van system and only requires me to flick a switch to decide whether to use mains power or inverter.
The Projecta 2000w inverter has this as an auto switch facility but as it was fitted 3 years after the c'van manufacture, it was to fiddly and difficult to try to utilize it. Much cheaper and easier to fit the manual switch.
Regards,
Ian
The Projecta 2000w inverter has this as an auto switch facility but as it was fitted 3 years after the c'van manufacture, it was to fiddly and difficult to try to utilize it. Much cheaper and easier to fit the manual switch.
Regards,
Ian
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Good info Ian ... can you elaborate a little if or how you have the RCD or RVD wired into it?
There are a couple of us looking or using these devices and any help is welcome.
There are a couple of us looking or using these devices and any help is welcome.
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BruceS
Mannum, SA
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BruceS
Mannum, SA
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Excellent post Ian, well explained regarding goals and how they were achieved and showing first hand that these goals really are achievable when using this newer technology.
Just an aside comment in the choice of equipment, you will remember your gold detecting mate in the Bushwacker, same capacity system but choose a different brand inverter, charger and used the original Bushwacker solar regulator. The only piece of that equipment that hasn't failed is the battery charger, the solar regulator was replaced with a Plasmatronics Dingo and the inverter with a british sounding name that starts with "S" also failed and is in the process of being upgraded. Through all those dramas out in the middle of the WA gold fields the battery kept up it's end of the bargain doing all that was asked of it and surviving a solar regulator failure that resulted in the solar being virtually a direct connection to the battery.
The take away from this, any existing or new equipment can be adapted into a lithium battery system, the equipment needs to be able to handle the job at hand and price doesn't always dictate what will and what won't handle the job.
Personally, I've had a great run with Plasmatronics products, Projecta products, CTeck products, a few evil bay sellers products that make you wonder how they can sell it for that price and yet it stands up to all sorts of abuse. The evilbay cheapie chargers and inverters possibly have a higher rate of failure not long out of the box but the reputable sellers have all been quick to replace any faulty items so only nuisance time related issues really.
Another thing worth noting, the auto switch through inverters are limited to the upper value of their switch through rated capacity, something to keep in mind when deciding if an auto switch through inverter or the manual 3 way 240vac switch is the better choice. For instance, the 2000w projecta inverter has the auto switch through feature and a wonderful display of just how many watts is either passing through or being supplied by the inverter, but the limit is still 2000w, so just because the system is plugged into the mains doesn't mean the 2400w kettle and toaster and 2400w heater will all operate without an issue, they won't if you choose the auto switch through as it's switch through capacity is limited to the 2000w. So in a case such as this example, the 3 way switch would be the better choice, then the limiting factor is the capacity of the RCD in the supply line.
Equally yet different issue along the same lines, the 3,000w/9,000w inverter chargers can switch 30 amps through so that won't be the weak point, but they are inverter/chargers with an uninterrupted power supply function (UPS), so if the RCD limit is exceeded on the supply side the mains power is lost, the UPS immediately takes over and the switch from one to the other is seamless..... except you are now eating battery capacity, not recharging the battery and not getting the $$ worth of electricity you paid for at the CP, which might have been why you had all the high use appliances turned on at the same time
Again, the 3 way switch would have clearly informed you that the power from the mains was no longer available.
Basically, if the system use can continue to live within the normal limitations of the equipment/supply available whether on mains or battery supply, auto switch through with the UPS function is brilliant, if pushing the envelope to beyond it's limits is the norm then a 3 way switch is the better choice

T1 Terry
Just an aside comment in the choice of equipment, you will remember your gold detecting mate in the Bushwacker, same capacity system but choose a different brand inverter, charger and used the original Bushwacker solar regulator. The only piece of that equipment that hasn't failed is the battery charger, the solar regulator was replaced with a Plasmatronics Dingo and the inverter with a british sounding name that starts with "S" also failed and is in the process of being upgraded. Through all those dramas out in the middle of the WA gold fields the battery kept up it's end of the bargain doing all that was asked of it and surviving a solar regulator failure that resulted in the solar being virtually a direct connection to the battery.
The take away from this, any existing or new equipment can be adapted into a lithium battery system, the equipment needs to be able to handle the job at hand and price doesn't always dictate what will and what won't handle the job.
Personally, I've had a great run with Plasmatronics products, Projecta products, CTeck products, a few evil bay sellers products that make you wonder how they can sell it for that price and yet it stands up to all sorts of abuse. The evilbay cheapie chargers and inverters possibly have a higher rate of failure not long out of the box but the reputable sellers have all been quick to replace any faulty items so only nuisance time related issues really.
Another thing worth noting, the auto switch through inverters are limited to the upper value of their switch through rated capacity, something to keep in mind when deciding if an auto switch through inverter or the manual 3 way 240vac switch is the better choice. For instance, the 2000w projecta inverter has the auto switch through feature and a wonderful display of just how many watts is either passing through or being supplied by the inverter, but the limit is still 2000w, so just because the system is plugged into the mains doesn't mean the 2400w kettle and toaster and 2400w heater will all operate without an issue, they won't if you choose the auto switch through as it's switch through capacity is limited to the 2000w. So in a case such as this example, the 3 way switch would be the better choice, then the limiting factor is the capacity of the RCD in the supply line.
Equally yet different issue along the same lines, the 3,000w/9,000w inverter chargers can switch 30 amps through so that won't be the weak point, but they are inverter/chargers with an uninterrupted power supply function (UPS), so if the RCD limit is exceeded on the supply side the mains power is lost, the UPS immediately takes over and the switch from one to the other is seamless..... except you are now eating battery capacity, not recharging the battery and not getting the $$ worth of electricity you paid for at the CP, which might have been why you had all the high use appliances turned on at the same time

Basically, if the system use can continue to live within the normal limitations of the equipment/supply available whether on mains or battery supply, auto switch through with the UPS function is brilliant, if pushing the envelope to beyond it's limits is the norm then a 3 way switch is the better choice


T1 Terry
A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
From an ''outsiders view'' sometime in the i hope distant future I will have to replace my AGM 150Ah battery.
AS I'm not finished traveling yet I am looking seriously at T1's posts and the lithium Batteries.
But .................. there is Always a BUT ................... there's a few things I'd like to know first.
First this is existing supply and draw :-
Van
My present setup is 150Ah AGM , just fits in the allocated space.
320W flexi solar on the roof
Socket on drawbar for portable 120W solar as well.
30A solar regulator ( forgot name ?)
20A battery charger always connected but switched off unless on power and in shade with battery getting low.
Also power via Andersen from the 14V the Ranger gives at the van battery.
Draw
Main draw is a 300W PSW inverter for Phy's computer.
Car radio during the day x ? hrs
TV at night x 4 hrs ?
LED Lights x 4 on at once , usually x 2 on
Diesel Air Heater ;- 12V during winter.
Fridge on site ( no power) is gas
Cooking , gas.
I have just got a logger for getting better figures from the battery but recently we drew the battery down to 12.2V , recharged to 13.2 by 11AM the next day in partial sun.
Ute
Has it's own system of 160W solar
200Ah AGM battery
15A projecta charger for boost if needed.
Plus the ability to link from the ute solar to the van solar, the 200Ah supply from the ute to the van and cross link it all together if I think I need extra battery.
The ute 200Ah's of battery supply the fridge / freezer ( usually freezer @ -10 or lower ) and can be recharged either by 15A charger, ute running or the 160W solar on the canopy.
There is also a 300w inverter ( not PSW ) and a 100W PSW inverter that I sometimes use to recharge my laptop if I decide to use that instead of the tablet on standby.
OK Now to the question
What would I need to get a lithium setup in my van alone,
The AGM's in the ute I'll leave alone for now !
I understand that a 100Ah L battery would by far out supply my needs on present draw but I'd like to up the supply without adding extra weight ( Getting critical / close to ute's capacity of 2.5T )
So fitting 150 / 200Ah li's, what else would I have to refit or supply and what would be the total cost of that exercise ?
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to know a bit more about the dollars needed to convert over
AS I'm not finished traveling yet I am looking seriously at T1's posts and the lithium Batteries.
But .................. there is Always a BUT ................... there's a few things I'd like to know first.
First this is existing supply and draw :-
Van
My present setup is 150Ah AGM , just fits in the allocated space.
320W flexi solar on the roof
Socket on drawbar for portable 120W solar as well.
30A solar regulator ( forgot name ?)
20A battery charger always connected but switched off unless on power and in shade with battery getting low.
Also power via Andersen from the 14V the Ranger gives at the van battery.
Draw
Main draw is a 300W PSW inverter for Phy's computer.
Car radio during the day x ? hrs
TV at night x 4 hrs ?
LED Lights x 4 on at once , usually x 2 on
Diesel Air Heater ;- 12V during winter.
Fridge on site ( no power) is gas
Cooking , gas.
I have just got a logger for getting better figures from the battery but recently we drew the battery down to 12.2V , recharged to 13.2 by 11AM the next day in partial sun.
Ute
Has it's own system of 160W solar
200Ah AGM battery
15A projecta charger for boost if needed.
Plus the ability to link from the ute solar to the van solar, the 200Ah supply from the ute to the van and cross link it all together if I think I need extra battery.
The ute 200Ah's of battery supply the fridge / freezer ( usually freezer @ -10 or lower ) and can be recharged either by 15A charger, ute running or the 160W solar on the canopy.
There is also a 300w inverter ( not PSW ) and a 100W PSW inverter that I sometimes use to recharge my laptop if I decide to use that instead of the tablet on standby.
OK Now to the question
What would I need to get a lithium setup in my van alone,
The AGM's in the ute I'll leave alone for now !
I understand that a 100Ah L battery would by far out supply my needs on present draw but I'd like to up the supply without adding extra weight ( Getting critical / close to ute's capacity of 2.5T )
So fitting 150 / 200Ah li's, what else would I have to refit or supply and what would be the total cost of that exercise ?
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to know a bit more about the dollars needed to convert over
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Ignorance is Liberating
You're not restricted by facts or knowledge.
You're a Free Person and, as such, able to form your own conclusions.
Ignorance is Liberating
You're not restricted by facts or knowledge.
You're a Free Person and, as such, able to form your own conclusions.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Youre right, 100ah would be plenty if your usage doesnt change, but if you wanted to increase capacity, then 200 ah would be the go. Given you have limited space, it may not be possible though. Is your solar regulator programmable? Otherwise a change to a dingo. A victron battery meter will be a useful addition so you know exactly what you have to draw down on, and what you currently have.
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Pace Arrow. La de da, property in two continents..
Pace Arrow. La de da, property in two continents..
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
What are the actual physical dimensions on the area you can fit the Li battery, that one is the critical, all the rest can be adapted for use with the Li battery with an all in one black box custom made for each system. The AGM in the ute can also remain as a secondary supply, although it is more likely the Li battery will supply the AGM rather than the other way around as the Li battery voltage will always be higher than the AGM, at least until the Li battery is completely discharged.Noggins wrote:From an ''outsiders view'' sometime in the i hope distant future I will have to replace my AGM 150Ah battery.
AS I'm not finished traveling yet I am looking seriously at T1's posts and the lithium Batteries.
But .................. there is Always a BUT ................... there's a few things I'd like to know first.
First this is existing supply and draw :-
Van
My present setup is 150Ah AGM , just fits in the allocated space.
320W flexi solar on the roof
Socket on drawbar for portable 120W solar as well.
30A solar regulator ( forgot name ?)
20A battery charger always connected but switched off unless on power and in shade with battery getting low.
Also power via Andersen from the 14V the Ranger gives at the van battery.
Draw
Main draw is a 300W PSW inverter for Phy's computer.
Car radio during the day x ? hrs
TV at night x 4 hrs ?
LED Lights x 4 on at once , usually x 2 on
Diesel Air Heater ;- 12V during winter.
Fridge on site ( no power) is gas
Cooking , gas.
I have just got a logger for getting better figures from the battery but recently we drew the battery down to 12.2V , recharged to 13.2 by 11AM the next day in partial sun.
Ute
Has it's own system of 160W solar
200Ah AGM battery
15A projecta charger for boost if needed.
Plus the ability to link from the ute solar to the van solar, the 200Ah supply from the ute to the van and cross link it all together if I think I need extra battery.
The ute 200Ah's of battery supply the fridge / freezer ( usually freezer @ -10 or lower ) and can be recharged either by 15A charger, ute running or the 160W solar on the canopy.
There is also a 300w inverter ( not PSW ) and a 100W PSW inverter that I sometimes use to recharge my laptop if I decide to use that instead of the tablet on standby.
OK Now to the question
What would I need to get a lithium setup in my van alone,
The AGM's in the ute I'll leave alone for now !
I understand that a 100Ah L battery would by far out supply my needs on present draw but I'd like to up the supply without adding extra weight ( Getting critical / close to ute's capacity of 2.5T )
So fitting 150 / 200Ah li's, what else would I have to refit or supply and what would be the total cost of that exercise ?
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to know a bit more about the dollars needed to convert over
T1 Terry
A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves