Lithium Batteries, who has them?
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Plus a bit of that all importing T1 juice ?
Coolabah1au
Wayne nini
Wayne nini
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
G'day Bruce,BruceS wrote:Good info Ian ... can you elaborate a little if or how you have the RCD or RVD wired into it?
There are a couple of us looking or using these devices and any help is welcome.
I will endevour to explain how mine works. However, I am not at the c'van at the moment so don't rely to much on the explanation!
I decided on the RVD EI after discussion with my sparky son and Ian from Powerstream.
My c'van has the normal 15 amp inlet and this goes to the RCD. From here it goes to the 240v circuit in the van. Just after the RCD, I have a 4 outlet switch for air con, microwave, hws and battery charger.
The inverter has two 3 pin 240v outlets and we capped one of these so it can't be used.
From the remaining outlet, we ran 240v cable from the inverter up to next to the existing RCD and installed the RVD EI here and wired the cable from the inverter to the RVD EI. The cables from the outlet side of both the RCD and RVD EI were then connected to a 3 way dial/switch so I can select mains, nothing or inverter and this gives me power to all 240v outlets, either from mains or the inverter.
The sparky that did the c'van wiring bypassed the 3 way dial/switch with the power to the battery charger so that it couldn't operate whilst on inverter, for obvious reasons.
This is how the benefit of being able to run the battery charger off the generator, whilst using the inverter to run the air con etc, came about. For me it was an unintended benefit and I'll give the sparky the benefit of the doubt that he could see the benefit to what he had done!
That is my take on how my system is wired but, as mentioned before, don't rely on its accuracy!
Regards,
Ian
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Anybody have an opinion about relativities device? SOme say I just need to monitor cell balance others say use some sort of BMS. Can I get away with high and low cut off and monitoring cell volatage difference.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
If you can get a charge controller that stops charging at 14.2-14.4v and has no float stage or temperature compensation, all you need then is cell balancers, or do it manually yourself. It also has to be able to switch on/off load at the voltage you want and not at LA voltages. Same with switching on charge, it should be about 13.8v when charge comes back on and not float as with LA.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
You can get away with that, but you would have no idea what capacity you have in the battery at any particular time so you would have no idea when the supply would be cut off. The cut off would need to be based on individual cell voltage, not battery terminal voltage, but with a battery monitor like the Victron BMV 600s or 700s to keep you informed of how much in remaining in the battery then a system could be run this way without too many dramas. Using a solar regulator as the primary control and the above system as the secondary control just gives a level of redundancy, so the monitor/cut off system would be the primary regulator with no back up.campingnut wrote:Anybody have an opinion about relativities device? SOme say I just need to monitor cell balance others say use some sort of BMS. Can I get away with high and low cut off and monitoring cell volatage difference.
T1 Terry
A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Would it be practical (please don't laugh - I'm electrically challenged) to build a lithium support base around functioning *AGM's wih a view to lithium replacement when the *LA's die?
dumb dawg *(see, I can use big words too
)
dumb dawg *(see, I can use big words too

Experience is a wonderful thing. It helps you recognise a mistake when repeated.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
If the AGM was "as new" you could but I don't know why you would, but if the AGM is showing it's age, then you will simply torture the lithium battery because it will become the life support unit for a dying AGM battery.generdawg wrote:Would it be practical (please don't laugh - I'm electrically challenged) to build a lithium support base around functioning *AGM's wih a view to lithium replacement when the *LA's die?
dumb dawg *(see, I can use big words too)
The way to test if the AGM battery is "as new" fully charge the battery for 24v hrs on float, let the battery sit disconnected for 1 hr, connect a 5 amp per 100Ah capacity load on the battery (C20) and measure the voltage over a 30 min period. With only 2.5Ah per 100Ah (2.5%) removed from the battery the voltage should still be better than 12.6v while under load, if it drops to 12.4v the battery is close to it's 60% capacity stage, or just about stuffed as it only really has 10% useable capacity left after a full recharge. 12.2v or less, you are just fooling yourself, the battery was dead some time ago

T1 Terry
A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
My bad. I did not think to mix lithium with AGM, just install the solar, gauges, inverters, switches and wiring etc, but apply to exiting AGM. Then install lithium at a later date when the AGM's carked it. There is not much demand on the batteries; water pump, lighting, TV etc. The heavy stuff; toaster, hair rollers/dryer, microwave and reverse cycle aircon are only used on land mains or generator. The fridge runs on gas or mains and only works on 12V in transit.T1 Terry wrote:... you will simply torture the lithium battery...
However, 700/2 ~= 2 years therefore, with a first rego date of January 2012, my AGM's are probably living on *borrowed time. They are not giving me problems though and I've just swapped out the 10A globes for LED's.

* the 120Ah we fitted November 2009 in the bus lasted for four abused years!
Experience is a wonderful thing. It helps you recognise a mistake when repeated.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Why don't you go straight for lifepo4 when your LA carks it. They are not that expensive to buy and set up when you consider the savings on genny fuel, van park fees, inconvenience and insecurity of LA. You could setup 100ah of lifepo4 for not much more than AGM, or even 200ah and have much more usable energy than the same capacity LA. In my opinion buying LA which such short life spans, low energy usability and weight, when you can step into this century and have long term security and high energy usability using lifepo4, is not a smart move. I wouldn't consider buying LA for anything any more, they are a waste of money. All my start batteries are becoming lifepo4 when they fail and my camera batteries are now lifepo4. With Nic batteries it take over a day to charge, but the lifepo4 charge in a couple of hours and instead of lasting one day of good shooting, the lifepo4 lasts many days and then only get to half SOD, then I charge them.
The advantages of lifepo4 over LA are almost never ending and they aren't that hard to setup, hopefully in the very hear future you will be able to buy solar charge controllers designed for lifpeo4. From what I've been told in the last day, there is growing pressure on battery maintenance manufacturers to construct dedicated lifepo4 management systems. Don't be surprised in the new year to see a solar charger controller come on the market which not only uses proper voltage parameters for lifepo4, but charges individual cell lines and not a bulk cell pack charge. This will solve just about all lifepo4 battery maintenance problems and will remove the need for cell balancers.
I'm dropping the need for a BMS cell balancing system and pushing a manufacturer who I know personally, to make what I've described. Currently the engineers are looking at it. It seems no one has made the effort to work out what would be best and simplest for lifepo4, everyone seems to just go with what they are told, or adapt LA technologies and hope they work on lifepo4.
Lifepo4 is not LA, they use totally different charge and control methods. No float, no temperature compensation as with LA, different voltage limits and charge regimes. When you can get 100ah of lifepo4 retail for $600-$700 and cheaper if you look around, LA is a waste of money.
The problems people have with lifepo4 is changing how they think about energy storage and usage. Same with computing the majority cling desperately to last century junk which is expensively useless in this day and age because they are so vulnerable. Whilst rejecting the simplicity ease of use and free state of the art. Not rocket science to work out why the corporate world cons everyone into thinking only they have the answers, when all they have is he profit growth, no answers at all and never ending expense for the consumer.
I'm talking from experience, I ignored or fought my kids for years when they tried introducing new technologies into our business, but let them do their own thing to keep the peace. One day i realised the entire business was running on lifepo4 for power and open source computing. Expenses dropped dramatically, suddenly we had no computing or power costs and efficiencies went through the roof. So gave in and let them load my computers with linux and my new home runs on lifepo4 and I love it.
if we don't stick with the times and adapt ourselves to current technologies which will make life easier and less expensive, we only have ourselves to blame for the never ending problems that always arise with using old technologies in a rapidly changing technological era. They even have a device which will charge your mobile phone when you are eating, from your jaw movements. We could hook up all the ladies and have unlimited power.
The advantages of lifepo4 over LA are almost never ending and they aren't that hard to setup, hopefully in the very hear future you will be able to buy solar charge controllers designed for lifpeo4. From what I've been told in the last day, there is growing pressure on battery maintenance manufacturers to construct dedicated lifepo4 management systems. Don't be surprised in the new year to see a solar charger controller come on the market which not only uses proper voltage parameters for lifepo4, but charges individual cell lines and not a bulk cell pack charge. This will solve just about all lifepo4 battery maintenance problems and will remove the need for cell balancers.
I'm dropping the need for a BMS cell balancing system and pushing a manufacturer who I know personally, to make what I've described. Currently the engineers are looking at it. It seems no one has made the effort to work out what would be best and simplest for lifepo4, everyone seems to just go with what they are told, or adapt LA technologies and hope they work on lifepo4.
Lifepo4 is not LA, they use totally different charge and control methods. No float, no temperature compensation as with LA, different voltage limits and charge regimes. When you can get 100ah of lifepo4 retail for $600-$700 and cheaper if you look around, LA is a waste of money.
The problems people have with lifepo4 is changing how they think about energy storage and usage. Same with computing the majority cling desperately to last century junk which is expensively useless in this day and age because they are so vulnerable. Whilst rejecting the simplicity ease of use and free state of the art. Not rocket science to work out why the corporate world cons everyone into thinking only they have the answers, when all they have is he profit growth, no answers at all and never ending expense for the consumer.
I'm talking from experience, I ignored or fought my kids for years when they tried introducing new technologies into our business, but let them do their own thing to keep the peace. One day i realised the entire business was running on lifepo4 for power and open source computing. Expenses dropped dramatically, suddenly we had no computing or power costs and efficiencies went through the roof. So gave in and let them load my computers with linux and my new home runs on lifepo4 and I love it.
if we don't stick with the times and adapt ourselves to current technologies which will make life easier and less expensive, we only have ourselves to blame for the never ending problems that always arise with using old technologies in a rapidly changing technological era. They even have a device which will charge your mobile phone when you are eating, from your jaw movements. We could hook up all the ladies and have unlimited power.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?
Often wondered where end of life as far as batteries is measured, in some cases it's seems to be when the lights go out 30 mins after the sun goes downgenerdawg wrote:My bad. I did not think to mix lithium with AGM, just install the solar, gauges, inverters, switches and wiring etc, but apply to exiting AGM. Then install lithium at a later date when the AGM's carked it. There is not much demand on the batteries; water pump, lighting, TV etc. The heavy stuff; toaster, hair rollers/dryer, microwave and reverse cycle aircon are only used on land mains or generator. The fridge runs on gas or mains and only works on 12V in transit.T1 Terry wrote:... you will simply torture the lithium battery...
However, 700/2 ~= 2 years therefore, with a first rego date of January 2012, my AGM's are probably living on *borrowed time. They are not giving me problems though and I've just swapped out the 10A globes for LED's.![]()
* the 120Ah we fitted November 2009 in the bus lasted for four abused years!

Yes, all the equipment that works with the Li batteries also works with lead acid/agm batteries, and vice versa, so the equipment can be added in stages as time/wallet permits.
Probably best to email me what you have in mind.
T1 Terry
A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves