Fusion AGMs

[freechange]

These Fusion batteries seem to have a much better cycle life chart than say the equivalent Fullriver AGM.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221380920811

Anyone know much about them? Price is right.

[dapope]

Stick with the lithium..... never need to worry about batteries again

[freechange]

Like to but too much smoke and mirrors and secret handshakes for me. Everybody loves talking about how good they are but as soon as you ask 'how' they go quiet. Why all the mystery? If I need to pay for the info just tell me.

E.g. what else do I need besides the hobbyking cell balancer and monitor? Suspect a shunt equipped battery monitor to act like a fuel tank.

Over to you.

[T1 Terry]

you need to understand what those charts are telling you. The top left, 0.05C means 5 amps per 100Ah advertised capacity or a C20 discharge rate (the capacity drawn down over 20hrs). Now look along the 0.05C line and mark the spot where it crosses the 12v line, this is real useable capacity because once the battery voltage drops below 12v the fridge and the TV stop working properly. Now look along the bottom line to see how many hs you can draw that 5 amps, 7 hrs? So that is not half of 20 hrs is it? 5 x 7 =35, so you can get 35Ah out of each 100Ah advertised capacity if you start with a 100% charged battery and only pull a max discharge rate of 5 amps per 100Ah capacity... not real flash is it?
Now let's look at what is required to get the battery back to 100% capacity if discharged to 50% capacity (below 12v) The charge rate must not exceed 0.1C or 10 amps per 100Ah advertised capacity, for 4 hrs, then a constant voltage of 2.45v per cell, 6 cells in a 12v battery so 14.7v, for a further 24 hrs.... what are going to use to recharge the battery? Not solar, you would need the sun to stay up for 28hrs. Now you have the battery back to 100% SOC if it's a new battery, and you can get another 35Ah before it drops below 12v again....... Now that is what I call smoke and mirrors, all the info is on their charts, just presented in a way you can not easily follow so you assume with normal use you would get 900 cycles before the battery dropped to 60% capacity, then the voltage would drop below 12v when a C20 load was applied, so the battery is now useless for running the fridge at all or watching TV.

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

Like to but too much smoke and mirrors and secret handshakes for me. Everybody loves talking about how good they are but as soon as you ask 'how' they go quiet. Why all the mystery? If I need to pay for the info just tell me.

E.g. what else do I need besides the hobbyking cell balancer and monitor? Suspect a shunt equipped battery monitor to act like a fuel tank.

Over to you.

No, you won't get all the info handed to you on a plate, it took yrs of hands on research to develop a system that actually does work, so yes, one way or another you actually have to pay for a system that works. You either pay with time and $$ doing the hands on research yourself, or you pay for a system that was built by someone who has spent the time and $$ doing the hard yards. The real battle is figuring out who does know what they are talking about and who is just jumping on the mega bucks band wagon trying to cash in on the new technology without actually knowing what they are doing.
All the info is out there, only a fraction of it is the correct info though.
The Hobby King cell balancer is for very small capacity cells, not house battery capacity cells, but it can be used to do a top end rebalance if needed. You do need a cell voltage monitor so you know the cell voltages are within their safe limits, min 2.8v and max 3.6v, but don't hold the cells at either of those voltages for any length of time, even 1 min, if you don't want to risk damaging the cell and loosing capacity. That is all you need to know, everything after that is methods of making that an easier task as watching cell voltages when charging or discharging a lithium battery is less exciting than watching paint dry, except at the very ends, then it all happens very quickly. Once a cell is full the voltage will climb from 3.4v to over 3.6v in under 1 min even charging at as little as 5 amps, when they are full they are full, there is no room for boiling the electrolyte like lead acid batteries, boil the electrolyte in an Li cell and it is stuffed and can not be recovered.

T1 Terry

[SteveW]

Regarding the last two posts, Terry.

1. You have managed to explain something I could never understand - that, on the face of it, 100AH means nothing in terms of what my battery can really deliver.

2. It is fair and right that a person should pay for the experience and knowledge needed to avoid falling into the trap of buying and installing stuff that doesn't work properly. It is probably right and fair that you promote yourself on this forum at least - after all, you have already given away plenty of free advice. So the question in my mind is, what is the cost of all of the necessary equipment for a useful and reliable set up, and what is fair payment for either the full installation of such a system, or fair payment for advice on the purchase, installation and maintenance of such a system. My interest is that I am two and a half years into the service life of 3 x 100AH deep cycle batteries charges by a combination of 240v charger, vehicle alternator and solar panels. We are occasional free campers and carry a generator - you know, hair dryer and Aldi coffee machine!

Feel free to answer my question publicly or privately, however, I feel a need to publicly promote the concept that you are entitled to reward for your skill and knowledge - as John does.

[native pepper]

Like to but too much smoke and mirrors and secret handshakes for me. Everybody loves talking about how good they are but as soon as you ask 'how' they go quiet. Why all the mystery? If I need to pay for the info just tell me.

E.g. what else do I need besides the hobbyking cell balancer and monitor? Suspect a shunt equipped battery monitor to act like a fuel tank.

Over to you.

G'day Cobber, the smoke and mirrors you talk about comes from those who want to control the lifepo4 industry, want to make money and those that don't have a clue. You can put all the manufactures in the category of don't have a clue, 99% of supposed electrical wizards and the majority of those claiming they know what they are talking about.

Since losing my best mate last year, who had been working with Lithium technology for the last 10 years, I've had to do a lot of my own research and can tell you from a technical fools point of view, it's a very confusing situation if you don't have a basis of understanding. Luckily I'd learnt enough to be able to sift through the crap and am well on the way to finally finishing off my bus system to get it right, then next is my house. Let me explain what you will come across if you do research lifepo4, which are the ants pants of electrical energy storage and out perform lead acid by 2/3 of rated capacity. If it wasn't for the huge drop in our dollar, you could get lifepo4 for almost the same price as paying for AGM and get almost 3 times the usable energy, from the same stated capacity.

You will find those who claim you don't need cell balancing and those that say you do. Those that claim you can use the same charge parameters as lead acid and these are mostly manufacturers of charge controllers, lifepo4 batteries and inverters. Charge controllers are the worst, just about all utilise lead acid measures of bulk charge, float, equalisation and temp control. When all lifepo4 needs is bulk charge and programmable upper and lower charge cut off Then we have those who claim PWM is better than MPPT controllers for lifepo4, my own experience is MPPT wins hands down and you don't need the PWM charge types for lifepo4, just as much input as you can get.

Then you have those claiming it is better to bottom balance and those claiming top balance and those claiming no need to balance. When you add claims over charging will kill them and those claiming over discharge will kill them, both are right. But it depends on how you charge and use them that counts.

The most disturbing are charge parameters, with claims ranging from 3.4v per cell, to 3.8 and even 4v per cell and the same with discharge ranging from 3v down to 2.8v. Then we have the claim that lifepo4 has no charge memory and you can safely keep them half charged and it won't matter to the available capacity, when it has been proven lifepo4 does have memory charging under certain circumstances, which will shorten capacity and life usability to a degree. Research has yet to determine what that will mean in 5-10-15 years of use, but from what I've been told by those using lithium for about 10 years, it can be overcome with simple changes to charge and discharge techniques every now and again.

My non technical advise, is learn as much as you can, don't accept what supposed experts say and demand you do and stick with a very simple formula of charge and discharge regimes. You can get many different types of BMS, but none really cope with lifepo4 properly, because they don't have individual cell cut off upper and lower parameters, which are very necessary for lifepo4. Luckily there is about to become available 60ah and 80ah solar charge controllers which has the right charge parameters for lifepo4 packs and will have one within the next month. Currently they are being assessed and tested by my mates offspring, who are at the forefront of lifepo4. If they come up to scratch, they will be available for everyone, including charge and discharge instructions everyone can understand and reasonably priced.

Basically to be safe and get the best out of lifepo4, you should keep your cells within the range off 3v-3.5v. Which is 12v and 14 for your entire cell pack, if using 12v. This is for off grid and RV use, EV users use different cut off voltages as they need all the energy they can get. For RV and of grid, if you have a good size array of solar panels, theoretically you only need to get through the night. During the day your pack will be completely recharged, unless it's very overcast.

When I get my 80ah charge controllers, my BMS will only be used for balancing and regulating the input from the 24-12v charger attached to the bus charge system. All you need is a good lifepo4 charge controller and individual cell cut off's, you can use some cell alarms for this as they don't rely upon amperage, just voltage.

So it's not rocket science, just a mater of learning some simple rules. What ever you do, don't buy lifepo4 12v batteries, they are crap and once you read the specs for them, you will realise they're life may be less than 5 years, if you're lucky. I have a lithumax lifepo4 starter battery in my car and it works excellently, but will be making my own now, so I know what the parameters are.

[freechange]

I got 4.5yrs out of my last lot of Fullriver DC 120AH AGMs. Full time 24/7 use with 600w solar, 160L 12v fridge, 300w inverter. 30% DOD mostly.

Thing with Lithium, depending on the total outlay, you need to hang on to the RV to be cost effective. I know of a setup where the user spent $3.5k converting to Lithium then sold the RV and bought another. Has to repeat the exercise.

Terry, do you have a 'package system' yet if I can't get to you? If I can travel to you what's your advice if having a Coaster converted. Run the solar wiring (8B&S), drop in the Lithium pack from say DxN, and leave the rest to you?

[T1 Terry]

you are quite correct John, lithium is a big $$ outlay compared to AGM batteries, so you do have to weigh up the need and if you are going to keep the vehicle long enough to warrant the expense or if your needs are great enough to warrant the expense. If you are happy with what AGM batteries can give you and the length of time they last then stay with them, but buy quality ones, not rubbish.
No matter which way you go, run either a dual conductor length of 6 B&S or 3 lengths of 6mm auto cable from the roof to the battery box so you have the best chance of getting all the solar to the batteries.
MPPT v PWM if you can spend the $$ on a Midnite Solar or Outback controller (genuine not the cheap Chinese knock off) then MPPT would be the go, but for the $1,000 plus you could buy a lot more solar and be a long way in front using a simple PWM control via a solid state relay array.
Drop me a PM if you want help as far as any of it goes, I do not wish to use this forum as any sort of shop front, the information I post on here is for free and it will always be, but please understand that I will not post all the details required.

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

Regarding the last two posts, Terry.

1. You have managed to explain something I could never understand - that, on the face of it, 100AH means nothing in terms of what my battery can really deliver.

2. It is fair and right that a person should pay for the experience and knowledge needed to avoid falling into the trap of buying and installing stuff that doesn't work properly. It is probably right and fair that you promote yourself on this forum at least - after all, you have already given away plenty of free advice. So the question in my mind is, what is the cost of all of the necessary equipment for a useful and reliable set up, and what is fair payment for either the full installation of such a system, or fair payment for advice on the purchase, installation and maintenance of such a system. My interest is that I am two and a half years into the service life of 3 x 100AH deep cycle batteries charges by a combination of 240v charger, vehicle alternator and solar panels. We are occasional free campers and carry a generator - you know, hair dryer and Aldi coffee machine!

Feel free to answer my question publicly or privately, however, I feel a need to publicly promote the concept that you are entitled to reward for your skill and knowledge - as John does.

As I said to John, I don't intend to use this forum as a sales platform, just give free advice to anyone I feel is not trying to gain knowledge for personal profit.
Reasonable prices, tough one, if it is a retro fit then it greatly depends on the type of equipment that needs to be controlled so they don't damage the lithium cells. Roughly around the $400 mark for a base unit up to maybe $700 for a unit that will control an inverter/charger, solar and DC to DC charging.
A battery monitor is really a must have item, my recommendation is the Victron 600s or 700s BMV, around the $200 mark and win the monitor ability game hands down, even better than the Plasmatronics Dingo or PL series with the shunt kit, simply because a lot more parameters can be adjusted to tune the monitor to suit the battery pack and charging efficiencies.
Buying cells, either Trev & Marcy at http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/default.asp who would be my number 1 pick for both price and helpful friendly service with the best quality brand and fresh stock, or http://www.evworks.com.au/battery-systems/batteries/
but be prepared for the attempted up size selling of every tag on product they can think of and all the site prices are plus GST. You will still need to source the link plates separately if you build the pack from 100Ah cells to build capacity as their braided links suit EV use down to the ground, but much too thick for linking multiple cells in series. If you use the Price Trev has up on his site, $1.52Ah for 3.2v cells, so 4 times that for 12v and 8 times that for 24v, it will give you a basic idea of what the battery component is worth, including tax I might add. Using this figure as a basis yo can get an idea of just how much some mobs are trying to make out of selling "ready to fit batteries" indigently, there is no such thing. Lithium upgrading is building a custom system that suits the individual need using the equipment already there, or matching the equipment that fits the budget and use requirements when building a system from scratch.

Hopefully that gives a guideline to determine if a system looks like value for money or an absolute rip off. Naturally there is some wiring costs and labour involved if someone else is doing the job so it depends how much is done and how much needs to be done as to how many hrs involved, but this goes for any person doing the job and any job you want to be done.

T1 Terry