When the smoke came out

Discussion about any electrical topic except 240 volts. Solar, converters, inverters, lights, battery chargers, etc
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T1 Terry
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When the smoke came out

Post by T1 Terry »

This is the story behind the comment in the good night thread regarding the smoke escaping from an inverter.
In this case it was a very early and heavy duty version of the Mitsu 3,000w inverter. It is quite a large unit and appears to have 2 inverters in each one of the double half cases, so a lot of wires connected to the positive terminals at the end of the casing. One of the positive terminals touched the outer casing and rubbed through the heat shrink, the inverter was mounted to the wooden floor so there was no connection to negative through the body work so no indication that the inverter body was actually plus 12vdc. Everything worked fine till I plugged the long extension lead coming out of the RVD into the caravan inlet socket, but a few mins later large clouds of smoke poor out of the inverter.
The earth lead through the extension cable connected the earth pin on the caravan inlet with the earth pin in the inverter, the caravan earth pin is connected to the caravan body, the earth pin in the inverter is connected to the inverter body. Because the cable was so long the voltage drop was enough to not create a dead short but rather heat up the earth conductor cable, the thinnest was in the inverter so it glowed red hot and burnt off all the green and yellow insulation, that was all the smoke. There was not enough current to blow the fuse, it was DC power so didn't trip the RVD, it just fried the earth cable. An easy fix to what looked like a terminal case of escaped smoke.

There was a similar issue with a Victron Phoenix multiplus. Inside the inverter there is an L shaped bus bar that connects the charger positive to a 400 amp mega fuse and the inverter positive inlet stud. The negative cable enters through the inverter base and over this bus bar and on to the negative stud. The whole unit connected up fine and ran for a number of hrs, then the lights and power went out. The 300 amp mega fuse had blown, at first I thought it was an over load failure, so I attempted to replace the fuse with a 450 amp unit.... the arc blew the washers above and below the fuse into a molten metal spray and removed the finger prints from 3 finger tips as I tried to get it back off, the silly things you do in one of those spare of the moment situations.
The problem turned out to be caused by a very sub standard cable crimp on the negative done from the caravan factory had finally rubbed through the heat shrink and made a connection with the positive bus bar, I'm guessing it was the first time the inverter had enough battery power to work under full load so the added heat was enough to create the failure in the heat shrink. Another easy fix, make a proper cable crimp and space the busbar lower and negative terminal higher so there was an air gap between the 2.

In both cases, nothing to do with anything that had been done during the job, but an issue that wasn't apparent before but certain was after. Sometimes its the little things you don't look at because it all worked before that catch you out.... and they ask why the job takes so long :lol:
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by dapope »

Amazing how the system gets a proper workout with a decent power supply..
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by BruceS »

I had a little smoke a few days ago as well ........
In my case the combo unit was being used to quickly top up the batteries while at the same time using the vacuum cleaner.
I never realized that the limit I had set for the charging side doesn't include what is being used.
So as it was pumping 1900w into the batteries it was also supplying the 1400w to the cleaner.
3300 w coming down the 15A cable resulted in one of the cable ends melting somewhat!
Possibly there wasn't a 100% good connection inside it.
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by Mrcoolabah1au »

Wow must have been a cloudy day that day when all the smoke came out :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by T1 Terry »

BruceS wrote:I had a little smoke a few days ago as well ........
In my case the combo unit was being used to quickly top up the batteries while at the same time using the vacuum cleaner.
I never realized that the limit I had set for the charging side doesn't include what is being used.
So as it was pumping 1900w into the batteries it was also supplying the 1400w to the cleaner.
3300 w coming down the 15A cable resulted in one of the cable ends melting somewhat!
Possibly there wasn't a 100% good connection inside it.
Bad connection the likely cause, 15 amps will supply 3600w continuous and a lot more short term..... as long as the circuit breaker holds out :lol:
The melted plug is common with the electric vehicle people, a badly oxidised plug pin or socket will create quite a bit if heat and melt the plug or even cause a fire in the wall socket.
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by jon_d »

Terry,

Sounds like you may need to get one of those laser thermometer to check the all connections temperatures under load before releasing the vans back to the customer. (and adding it to the job sheet check list)
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by T1 Terry »

jon_d wrote:Terry,

Sounds like you may need to get one of those laser thermometer to check the all connections temperatures under load before releasing the vans back to the customer. (and adding it to the job sheet check list)
The touch test works well and something I can show the owner, if it feels hot then there is the problem. Determining if there is clearance around terminal without the covers on is a tad trickier, with the Dibs inverter it was the case touching against the heat shrink on the terminal after it was installed, you can find it after the event but I have no idea how you would determine if there was clearance or not without the heatsink/covers on.... and you can't see the terminals once the covers are fitted.
The Victron problem was with the dodgie terminal crimp, one corner turned up further than the other, just enough to apply pressure after it was tightened down. It was never an issue with the lead acid batteries as they couldn't fully power the 3,000w inverter, but the lithium battery could and that created enough heat for the problem to show up, but not for 3 hrs, it took that long to heat up the parts involved, can you imagine lead acid batteries powering a 3,000w inverter for 2 hrs :lol:
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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by Dibsy »

Telling stories behind my back hahahah . But I recon the phone message was the best one .

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Re: When the smoke came out

Post by T1 Terry »

Welcome to the forum officer Dibble, a few memorable events during that install, the look on Della's face when I said the battery wouldn't work like that was one of those that required a photo or even better a funniest home video, I reckon it would have been a winner without anyone actually getting injured during the filming :lol: the next bit when I explained they needed the connectors attached before they'd work would have been a runner up or the next session winner with the look on both your face and Della's as it sunk in that you'd been had and there was nothing wrong with the batteries at all :lol:
A person may fail many times, they only become a failure when they blame someone else John Burrows
Those who struggle to become a leader, rarely know a clear direction forward for anyone but themselves

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