BIG battery comments

[Eddy]

Hi Bruce
Any of the people giving quotes elaborate on having to participate in the power sharing part with energy company to get Government rebates ?
Thanks

[BruceS]

Good question Eddy!
All of the 4 companies made it clear that the VPP part of it should be available but doesn't need to be activated.
As for Grid connected, it doesn't need to be to get the rebate IF a certain distance from the grid or it would cost (from memory) over $30,000 to get connected to it. This would suit outback stations or isolated properties.
So a lot of requirements have been relaxed but I'd want it in writing.
Any one thinking of just throwing a battery in needs to ensure they have a hybrid inverter although I did see one system that didn't require it.

[T1 Terry]

Some interesting reading regarding VPP (Virtual Power Plant) https://www.solarchoice.net.au/solar-batteries/vpp/ The lack of payment transparency, the added battery stress by being cycled by the energy provider charging the battery while there is excess available and power is cheap, then using that stored power from your battery when energy costs are high .... but not paying you at that higher rate and no assurity there will be anything there if a power outage occurs.
There is no demand that you sign up to a VPP, but if your system is capable, there doesn't seem to be any assurance that they won't use your battery without your consent or without you even knowing it happened ......

Always remember the No Free Lunch rule and the truth behind "We are from the Govt and here to help you"

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

Just watched this You Tube video about CATL sodium ion battery production ..... and it is going to seriously change the whole energy storage industry for grid, home and vehicle battery selection ......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MkMgwf2lAs
This isn't something new in a lab that will never see the light of day, this is the second generation end product .... well worth watching and following any links to these batteries and maybe CATL as well, they are certainly going to shake up the industry

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

This one is from 2021, the rate of change just between this doco and what we are doing now is mind bending https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEUfhSgbbE0
There is no mention of geo thermal, solar thermal, wave pumping and thermal transfer turbines, where the hot ground surface air is directed up a large thermal stack, similar to the cooling towers seen at the old coal turbine station, but much taller, venting the very hot air up into the colder air stream and putting a turbine blade in that airflow .....

T1 Terry

[native pepper]

Bruce, my house battery system of 1100ah is 18 years old, my portable 120ah pack 19 years old. Sorry don't know how to convert ah to kwh, but the house uses between 10-13kwh a day and so far the system has been adequate. I used to run the house on 700ah, but moved the buses 480ah pack into the house close to 2 years ago and it has made a big difference. Also added 3kw solar to the 3.5kw panels on the house, as they are so cheap. The portable pack is charged by 2kw solar at my workshop and I'm still using the charge controllers had built 20 years ago and have a number of spares which so far haven't been used.

I'm looking forward to sodium ion batteries, which should reach a real useable state and price in the next year or two and will get some depending on price. I still have spare never used or charged 50ah cells almost 20 years old and they still hold 3.2v. Sodium ion has come along at the right time for me, as expect my lifepo4 system will start to lose capacity soon, but you never know they may go on for many more years.

[T1 Terry]

KWH is the nominal battery voltage, LFP is 3.2v x the number of cells in series ( 12.8v for 4 cells 12v battery, 25.6v for 8 cells 24v battery and 51.2v for 16 cells 48v battery) multiplied by the Ah per cell group (4 x 100Ah cells in parallel is 400Ah x 4 or 8 or 16, depending on the nom. battery voltage) .... e.g. 4 x 100Ah cells in parallel x 4 sets in series = 400Ah 12.8v battery (12v) = 5.1 kwh capacity ..... the same as 1 x 100Ah cell x 16 in series = 100Ah 51.2v (48v) battery = 5.1kwh capacity .....

My 600Ah Sodium ion battery is 3.1v nom. 200Ah in parallel and 4 sets in series, written 2P4S = 4.95kwh, but the fact the fully charged capacity is 6.4kwh and can actually be discharge to 0v, means all that 6.4kwh could be used ..... but the last bit would be at something like 2v for the last bit .... so really a useless measurement ......

Simple as rocket science

My MG4 battery is 104 cells x 150Ah cell although they don't actually claim any capacity, yet claim it is a 51kwh battery .... a matter I have disputed for some time and the latest battery is now claimed to be 49kwh ..... so closer to the 144Ah I believe the true capacity is ...... still a lot of capacity for the $$, Bruce's quoted price for his battery was $26,280 .... possibly plus GST, the whole MG4 brand new was $30,000 with 12 mths rego and all the on road fees .......
So, for an additional $3,720, I got twice the capacity as Bruce's quoted price and 12 mths rego and on road costs, and a new car wrapped around it ..... so the battery is multipurpose and portable, has it's own built in inverter and charger and can be direct DC solar or mains charged with the required equipment ...... hard to beat for the money .... the first salvage MG4 I bought has a 64kwh battery and cost $3,687.50 ..... and I think $300 to get it delivered to the yard ......

Can't wait until these CATL Sodium ion batteries hit the salvage market when a few of those cars get written off .....

T1 Terry

[Greynomad]

T1,
Would these Sodium batteries be less prone to burning than lithium? After all, it’s just salt isn’t it?
I remember in the early days of research into renewables some establishments used superheated salt (which turned liquid) in a tower, heated by huge fields of mirrors, as a storage medium to generate steam for traditional boiler-powered generators once the sun set.
News about progress in this area just sort of evaporated…

[native pepper]

Ray, the original super heated salt batteries, sat at around 1400deg C, they used a stirling engine to generate power using direct heat from the salt I believe and could provide enough heat to run the stirling engine for 4 days non stop. It was later they used solar towers to heat to salt vats and generate with steam, but the stirling engine functioned better for generation. I read they abandoned solar towers and salt vats because the technology wasn't up to surviving long term and the molten salt could get a bit cantankerous and create problems. But if you look on youtube, you'll find many claims of generating power from supposed simple sources, the use of spark plugs is prominent, but yet to try that. They also claim to generate power from rainwater, but haven't had time to delve into that scenario and many of those vids are a good laugh, but shouldn’t condemn them until have tried their approach.

The reality is there's electrical energy in just about every action on and off the planet, Tesla claimed using to poles and wires, he could generate endless energy. Today that's a feasible option, because our planet is one big generator and produces unlimited amounts of electrical energy, it's just a matter of harnessing it. Watched a video a year or so ago, where they claimed aliens could be able to transit the universe harnessing the electrical energy of the universe and riding on that at light speed an above.

Also watched a video yesterday where a bloke invented a camera which took 200000 pictures a second and was able to video the results of watching a laser light go from the source to a mirror and back to another mirror showing that the light actually slowed down at times. His technical explanation left my head spinning but to watch a laser being filmed and seeing it change speed was interesting. Especially when he claimed that light speed was manipulable and of so, that opens up the door for galactic travel. But I'm getting off track.

Sodium batteries can't explode, unless you put an explosive charge in them and they appear to have very long lives with little maintenance and also very forgiving, unlike lithium and LA batteries, however only time will tell. Read today that CATL is developing a much better sodium battery than they are producing currently using a different anode, so we may see even better batteries during this decade. Although the way human society is going, anything could happen with the ideological insanity going off the rails in every direction.

[T1 Terry]

T1,
Would these Sodium batteries be less prone to burning than lithium? After all, it’s just salt isn’t it?
I remember in the early days of research into renewables some establishments used superheated salt (which turned liquid) in a tower, heated by huge fields of mirrors, as a storage medium to generate steam for traditional boiler-powered generators once the sun set.
News about progress in this area just sort of evaporated…

A few posts back I put up a You Tube video about CATL second gen Sodium ion batteries viewtopic.php?p=157679#p157679 and this shows them in actual production after all the tests required by the Chinese govt that EV batteries must be explosion and fire proof under strict test conditions to be used in an EV sold in 2026 ......

Well worth a watch and see just how far battery construction has come in a very short time frame ..... these CATL second gen Sodium ion batteries would have to be the safest battery chemistry available right now .... as the commentator says, the rest of the battery manufacturing industry must be really concerned, they just will not be able to compete in price, range, weight and safety.
Finally, a power source for a vehicle that won't go up in flames, fills as fast as any fuel tank and will last long enough to seriously consider keeping the vehicle well beyond the 10 yr cycle most cars last these days without serious money being invested in keeping it running .....

T1 Terry