Blown Perkins 354

[Pokey]

I am in the poo and need to replace the engine in the old bus. Am looking for input from members if possible. My set up is an old Bedford, forward engine running a Perkins 6-354 attached to a fuller 5 speed and a 3 speed Joey box. I suspect that the engine/gear box combo came from an old Acco. Brakes are vacuum over hydraulic and there is a power assisted steering pump and big hydraulic ram fitted. 354's are getting old and there aren't a lot around, the only real option I have come across is to go to a Phaser. The increase in HP would vbe appreciated but there may be a problem with the fly wheel bell housing or so I am told. Another option suggested to me was to go to a Cummins 6BT, probably the 180HP one as it comes with an intercooler as part of the setup and to go too an Allison auto. I am told that the Joey would remain and you just select high before setting off and let the auto do it;s job. At the top of a range, stop, select low in the joey and go if there is a need for the lower slower gears. Of course there is the more standard change over to an Isuzu 6b something D, G or H. The Cummins does appeal as it would give me an easier box, especially if the wife was to drive it, and I would save having to do an overhaul on the Fuller as it is popping 3rd gear.

When talking to the guy about the Cummins he suggested changing over the vacuum to air with an "air pack". Is this feasible and how difficult is it? The air over hydraulics would be better then the current set up but how much is involved on the change and is it expensive?

Thanks for ant assistance offered

[BruceS]

Hi Pokey, sorry to hear the bad news!
Maybe tell us where you are? I mean are you home or over the 'other side' & need a quick fix?
Do you know the extent of the damage?
I've always had doubts about throwing a 'new' motor into an old unit.
I know it can be done but I've also seen a few people go bald over doing it.
Just look at T1........ only an empty shell left!!! (joke T1!)

[Pokey]

Thanks mate. Yeah it is an old shell, but it is the only one I've got and without an engine it is probably worthless so not much choice unless the numbers come up in the Lotto. I haven't had it checked but she won't turn over at all now even though the starter is trying. Pulled up in a cloud of smoke and no power so pretty certain she is if you see Kay'd if you get my drift. That is the reason for the phaser choice, basically the same with some minor adjustments. I don't want to go down the track of an old untested motor if I can help it, certainly cheaper but for how long. This is to be our home for a lot of years or that is the plan so just have to go with it. Fit out and size are good so just have to get the mechanicals up to a standard.

[BruceS]

Pokey can you give me a general area you are in?
I may be able to assist depending on your location & where the bus is.
Can it be 'worked on' where it is or does it need a trip to somewhere?
I won't ask my contact before I get some details off you.

[T1 Terry]

Did the 6 354 do the job, or was it always a struggle? the reason for asking, it's likely you will find a rebuilt engine laying in workshop at a bus yard or one of the old school mechanic shops.
The biggest risk with the repower is the added torque. The axles, diff, tailshaft have all done the same miles as the reset of the bus, suddenly pouring double the torque and an auto that drop back a gear in the blink of an eye and bang, one of the bits comes out.
If you want to go the auto, what about a 350 Chev on LPG or one on the diesel 350 Chev and a 4 speed Allison, the bellhousings are available
. You will need a 545 Allison with the lock up torque converter, the 540 is ok but I'd opt for the lock up converter if i had the pick, the 545 was a stronger case as well.
If you go to the Phaser you can leave the turbo off, I think that comes out at around 175hp to 180hp, any thing bigger and you will need to step up in the Allison size, then it starts to get expensive.
The 8 3026 CAT was a lovely engine, it could be detuned to around 190hp from it's original 210hp, there should be still a few of them about as well, if it will fit between the chassis rails, with the 190hp detune you can still use the 545 Allison, they are good for 200hp.
As far as swapping from Vacuum over to air over, if you are talking about an air pedal driving a hydraulic system, don't do it, they are a nightmare. No pedal feel, you have no idea when you have run out of brake adjustment until the day you sail through the intersection or a little quicker than planned down the big hill. The vacuum over master cyl and servo from an Isuzu driven by the original Bedford "if only" vacuum assist master cyl will give you brakes that will throw you out of your seat if you jump on them, a very worthwhile upgrade, along with a seatbelt for mum just in case she nods off

[Pokey]

Terry,

The 354 did the job, it's only problem was gradient. Any gradient caused significant slowing up and any steepish climb caused her to slow and I had to go way down the gears. I have been reduced to a crawl so some extra power would be nice in that way. Flat road speed was all I want. I would guess that the drive shaft was changed with the engine as I don't think the Joey box was part of the original. It would have been put in when the engine swap from petrol was originally done though I get your point. The concern I would have with the 350 Chev is fit, being a V8 it will be wider at the top and probably more intrusive into the cabin.

I was heading to Emerald in Qld when this happened. Cost an arm and a leg to get her here as I had to get a truck from Rocky to carry me. No good going back to Rocky as I have work here. Might as well earn a bob while sitting around.

[BruceS]

Well I'd reckon if the Perk was fitted properly and noted on your registration probably the cheapest and quickest would be to replace your motor with an identical one. No engineer needed?
If you're mostly using it as a 'parked up home' mostly where you're working it might not matter too much if it doesn't fly.
I do know where a fully rebuilt Phaser is but it's a long way from you and it's marinised. (heat exchanger fresh/raw water etc) I'll find out the price if you like?

[Kelvin12]

Terry, would have thought the newer treadle valves would have been or have a better "feel" application.

Dirk

[Pokey]

Thanks for that a price would give me some more food for thought.

Well I'd reckon if the Perk was fitted properly and noted on your registration probably the cheapest and quickest would be to replace your motor with an identical one. No engineer needed?
If you're mostly using it as a 'parked up home' mostly where you're working it might not matter too much if it doesn't fly.
I do know where a fully rebuilt Phaser is but it's a long way from you and it's marinised. (heat exchanger fresh/raw water etc) I'll find out the price if you like?

[T1 Terry]

The foot air valve driving an air camber that applies the hydraulic brakes give no feed back to how much pedal effort you are actually applying or how far the hydraulic cyl is travelling. With full air you get some feed back and you can see how much air you are loosing each pedal application and that gives you some feed back for the brake adjustment. With the vacuum over hydraulic arrangement, the pedal effort and pedal travel gives you feel for the brakes, in the original Bedford system it gave you the feel that a wet hanky parachute out the window would slow you faster, but you could still feel there was something there

As far as the Chev 350 fitting, plenty of room, they have a smaller V than the 351 Cleveland and they fitted well as a replacement for the 400 Leyland and 466 Bedford engines, even the 330 diesel Bedford was a bigger in size than a Cleveland, about 1/3rd the power of the Cleveland though, they were a pitiful piece of gear as far as performance goes but the old 330 plodded on forever. If room is a bit tight, forget about the V8 CAT, they are a big lump of an engine.

What price for the Cummins and Allison transmission? Would that be the 8 sp World Series box? They have quite a reputation as a good bit of gear, you could drop the joey box and sell that off, but keeping the diff and axles in one piece might be a different story.